Comments on: GNOME and Novell: The FUD Stops Here http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/ where we're going, we don't need roads... Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:33:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1-alpha-10188 hourly 1 By: alphager http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2583 alphager Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:57:42 +0000 http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2583 It all is a question of trust. Novell has made a deal with Microsoft. The official version of that deal is just a grant of patents and a commitment to interoperability. The result is that Novell (and thus Novell-employed people) can use Microsoft patents without fear. However, the deal only extends to Novell an it's customers, not the community as a whole. Do i think that Microsoft has good intentions towards Free Software? No. Can I trust that Microsoft will honor their agreement? No, considering the infamous Spyglass-deal i have to assume that Microsoft will screw the community at the first chance it gets. Do i trust the Novell-Management to have the wellbeing of the community in mind? No, their only obligations are to the stockholders, and i am sure that it is only a question of money for them to hurt the community. So, do i trust Novell that their strategy is good for the community? No, their strategy is about money. Do i trust the Novell-employees to keep their contributions free of legal time-bombs? I cannot trust them, as i do not know them. Their bunker-mentality does not help in this way. Miguels doesn't help either. It's one thing to have a favorable opinion about Microsoft, .NET and OOXML. It's another thing to say that all criticism is irrelevant, unjustified and dumb. The distance between GNOME and Miguel cannot be too long at this point. Keeping Miguel near GNOME does damage the project's image. Regarding Mono: As long as Microsofts Chairman Steve Ballmer continues to say that the supreme goal of his reign is the destruction and or burial of the "cancer" that is Free Software, i cannot condone the usage of anything even remotely connected to Microsoft. Their goal is to destroy us; the patent-agreement is not there to benefit us. It all is a question of trust.

Novell has made a deal with Microsoft. The official version of that deal is just a grant of patents and a commitment to interoperability.
The result is that Novell (and thus Novell-employed people) can use Microsoft patents without fear. However, the deal only extends to Novell an it’s customers, not the community as a whole.

Do i think that Microsoft has good intentions towards Free Software? No.
Can I trust that Microsoft will honor their agreement? No, considering the infamous Spyglass-deal i have to assume that Microsoft will screw the community at the first chance it gets.

Do i trust the Novell-Management to have the wellbeing of the community in mind? No, their only obligations are to the stockholders, and i am sure that it is only a question of money for them to hurt the community.

So, do i trust Novell that their strategy is good for the community? No, their strategy is about money.

Do i trust the Novell-employees to keep their contributions free of legal time-bombs? I cannot trust them, as i do not know them. Their bunker-mentality does not help in this way.

Miguels doesn’t help either. It’s one thing to have a favorable opinion about Microsoft, .NET and OOXML. It’s another thing to say that all criticism is irrelevant, unjustified and dumb. The distance between GNOME and Miguel cannot be too long at this point. Keeping Miguel near GNOME does damage the project’s image.

Regarding Mono: As long as Microsofts Chairman Steve Ballmer continues to say that the supreme goal of his reign is the destruction and or burial of the “cancer” that is Free Software, i cannot condone the usage of anything even remotely connected to Microsoft. Their goal is to destroy us; the patent-agreement is not there to benefit us.

]]> By: Casper http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2582 Casper Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:49:02 +0000 http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2582 @Pinky: Miguel's stated goal is to attract Windows programmers over to Linux and with only 18 payed developers its understandable why they would have to pick their battles with care. As far as I know, there is no plan to implement WPF and also there's not even a MonoDevelop version available for Windows. In any event, nothing is stopping you from participating, I suspect it all boils down to resources. Given the results of the just released MonoDevelop survey, it appears your request of GTK# etc. is being heard: http://www.monodevelop.com/Survey_Results_2007 @Pinky:

Miguel’s stated goal is to attract Windows programmers over to Linux and with only 18 payed developers its understandable why they would have to pick their battles with care. As far as I know, there is no plan to implement WPF and also there’s not even a MonoDevelop version available for Windows.

In any event, nothing is stopping you from participating, I suspect it all boils down to resources. Given the results of the just released MonoDevelop survey, it appears your request of GTK# etc. is being heard: http://www.monodevelop.com/Survey_Results_2007

]]> By: pinky http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2581 pinky Tue, 27 Nov 2007 12:10:08 +0000 http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2581 @Janne: I agree with your opinion about Mono. As Mono come out i was really excited, tried it and liked it. But today it seems like Mono has shifted from GNU/Linux to Windows. Maybe it's a bit superficial but i just have to look at Mono release notes. In the early days you could read about improvement in the GNOME/GTK+ field today you read only about Window-Forms, Moonlight,... I'm not interested in this stuff. What about Gtk# and other GNOME technology and the improvements in this area from one Mono release to another? The same i see by monodevelop. They shoud first create a first class GNOME-IDE and than they can try to add windows-technology. But they waste their time with Window-Form things etc. Mono started as a development environment for GNU/Linux with an Windows-compatibility-stack today it looks more like a development environment for Windows with an GNOME compatibility stack. Sad. @Janne:

I agree with your opinion about Mono. As Mono come out i was really excited, tried it and liked it. But today it seems like Mono has shifted from GNU/Linux to Windows.

Maybe it’s a bit superficial but i just have to look at Mono release notes. In the early days you could read about improvement in the GNOME/GTK+ field today you read only about Window-Forms, Moonlight,…

I’m not interested in this stuff. What about Gtk# and other GNOME technology and the improvements in this area from one Mono release to another?

The same i see by monodevelop. They shoud first create a first class GNOME-IDE and than they can try to add windows-technology. But they waste their time with Window-Form things etc.

Mono started as a development environment for GNU/Linux with an Windows-compatibility-stack today it looks more like a development environment for Windows with an GNOME compatibility stack. Sad.

]]> By: harry tuttle http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2578 harry tuttle Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:49:40 +0000 http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2578 Gnome and Mono: http://www.free-media.org/index.php?/archives/14-How-to-spot-a-MonopoLIE.html All there is to say. Gnome and Mono:

http://www.free-media.org/index.php?/archives/14-How-to-spot-a-MonopoLIE.html

All there is to say.

]]> By: Casper http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2575 Casper Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:42:28 +0000 http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2575 Miguel is a pragmatist more than a FSF zealot, which has earned him his share of enemies. In fact, there have been so much FUD lately on various forums, proving that software religion can divide the community and undermine everything else, even technical aspects – which is really what we should be interested in. Miguel read the ECMA specs and saw how much better it was than Java and created Mono. Thus it’s hardly surprising he would come to a similar offset conclusion reading the ODF/OOXML specs, clearly (to me anyway) OOXML handles embedded content and vectoring better than ODF. My hat off to Miguel for standing up to his beliefs in spite of being badmouthed on blogs, excluded from committees etc. I wish the open source world had more people like him, do’ers instead of preachers. If that was the case Microsoft truly had reason to worry. Miguel is a pragmatist more than a FSF zealot, which has earned him his share of enemies. In fact, there have been so much FUD lately on various forums, proving that software religion can divide the community and undermine everything else, even technical aspects – which is really what we should be interested in.
Miguel read the ECMA specs and saw how much better it was than Java and created Mono. Thus it’s hardly surprising he would come to a similar offset conclusion reading the ODF/OOXML specs, clearly (to me anyway) OOXML handles embedded content and vectoring better than ODF. My hat off to Miguel for standing up to his beliefs in spite of being badmouthed on blogs, excluded from committees etc. I wish the open source world had more people like him, do’ers instead of preachers. If that was the case Microsoft truly had reason to worry.

]]> By: Miguel Branco http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2574 Miguel Branco Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:42:00 +0000 http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2574 jdub <> So end with that sort of expressions I refer to so that matter can be a thing of the past and not of the present. I feel irritated as a KDE user (and tranlator) . You in GNOME tend to picture yourselves as some some sort of saivoirs of freedom and the only people to be truly open source complainant. Just to remember, you accept LGPL'ed code while KDE doesn't and it's entirely GPL, so who is more truly open source?. jdub <>

So end with that sort of expressions I refer to so that matter can be a thing of the past and not of the present. I feel irritated as a KDE user (and tranlator) . You in GNOME tend to picture yourselves as some some sort of saivoirs of freedom and the only people to be truly open source complainant. Just to remember, you accept LGPL’ed code while KDE doesn’t and it’s entirely GPL, so who is more truly open source?.

]]> By: james lamm http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2557 james lamm Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:03:47 +0000 http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2557 The one thing I would add is that it seems to me, that at one time Miguel stated that the justice dept. should leave Micr. alone. This came right at the trial. This was also at a time when Micr. was making public statements about helping Mono. I think one has to take what everybody says with a grain of salt. There is very little true charity and we all have to be on guard that leaders might want to take a project in a direction that profits them. I am surprised from the posts above that mono is now focusing on windows. What is the good of that? Can't you just run .net on windows? The one thing I would add is that it seems to me, that at one time
Miguel stated that the justice dept. should leave Micr. alone. This came
right at the trial. This was also at a time when Micr. was making public
statements about helping Mono. I think one has to take what everybody
says with a grain of salt. There is very little true charity and we all have to
be on guard that leaders might want to take a project in a direction that
profits them.

I am surprised
from the posts above that mono is now focusing on windows. What is the
good of that? Can’t you just run .net on windows?

]]> By: Scott http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2556 Scott Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:40:14 +0000 http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2556 It saddens me greatly to watch the community, as communities often do, divide and hold so tightly to their opinions (and that's all that fuels most of the most passionate debates and flames - little fact comes in to play) that they ensure the on-going dominance of the non-community alternative. Been there, saw that, know how the story ends. Anyone remember desktop Unix? CDE vs Openlook vs Motif? Windows won. And for those who believe working with MS can only end one way, take a closer look at history. MS got where they are by making sure their OS worked with the important other environments customers had and set the stage for taking share from Unix, NetWare and other then-dominant OSes. To take share back from them requires the same level of interoperability and surround then out-do them approach. Total separation is a recipe for, well, total separation, not share gain. It is fine if the community wants to keep their software just for themselves but the commercial entities that employ certain members of the community are in this for commercial gain and that means grabbing share and selling services and other products into a growing customer base. Sorry if that isn't the movie some want to watch but, for these companies, this is business. Different companies approach this different ways. Novell knows better than most how a competitor can first be compatible with you then take your share. They've boldly started down a path that is at once good for customers and that sets in motion a method for taking share from MS. They've not set down a path that deliberately aims to give MS leverage against Linux and / or FOSS. Some think they're naive and have set themselves and the community up unknowingly. That's just not the case. They may or may not succeed but their eyes are open, they've taken extra measures to protect Linux and the community along the way and they are growing use of Linux in the market. It saddens me greatly to watch the community, as communities often do, divide and hold so tightly to their opinions (and that’s all that fuels most of the most passionate debates and flames - little fact comes in to play) that they ensure the on-going dominance of the non-community alternative.

Been there, saw that, know how the story ends. Anyone remember desktop Unix? CDE vs Openlook vs Motif? Windows won.

And for those who believe working with MS can only end one way, take a closer look at history. MS got where they are by making sure their OS worked with the important other environments customers had and set the stage for taking share from Unix, NetWare and other then-dominant OSes. To take share back from them requires the same level of interoperability and surround then out-do them approach. Total separation is a recipe for, well, total separation, not share gain. It is fine if the community wants to keep their software just for themselves but the commercial entities that employ certain members of the community are in this for commercial gain and that means grabbing share and selling services and other products into a growing customer base. Sorry if that isn’t the movie some want to watch but, for these companies, this is business. Different companies approach this different ways. Novell knows better than most how a competitor can first be compatible with you then take your share. They’ve boldly started down a path that is at once good for customers and that sets in motion a method for taking share from MS. They’ve not set down a path that deliberately aims to give MS leverage against Linux and / or FOSS.

Some think they’re naive and have set themselves and the community up unknowingly. That’s just not the case. They may or may not succeed but their eyes are open, they’ve taken extra measures to protect Linux and the community along the way and they are growing use of Linux in the market.

]]> By: Janne http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2553 Janne Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:04:50 +0000 http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2553 My main concern with mono is the opposite: the project seems clearly all about distancing itself from Gnome as a platform in favour of Silverlight et. al. I used Mono and C# with some enthusiasm for a while, but I want to use it for Gnome and Linux development. And as all the excitement in the mono project has shifted to making it a platform for Windows programming, not Linux or Gnome, I've pretty much abandoned it as a development platform. My main concern with mono is the opposite: the project seems clearly all about distancing itself from Gnome as a platform in favour of Silverlight et. al. I used Mono and C# with some enthusiasm for a while, but I want to use it for Gnome and Linux development. And as all the excitement in the mono project has shifted to making it a platform for Windows programming, not Linux or Gnome, I’ve pretty much abandoned it as a development platform.

]]> By: José Tiburcio Ribeiro Netto http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2551 José Tiburcio Ribeiro Netto Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:25:11 +0000 http://perkypants.org/blog/2007/11/27/gnome-and-novell-the-fud-stops-here/#comment-2551 Great post Jeff! It has made many people's vision about GNOME clear... Great post Jeff!

It has made many people’s vision about GNOME clear…

]]>